VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

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ScottMarlowe
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by ScottMarlowe » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:58 pm

CharlieP wrote:
ScottMarlowe wrote:
DtroitPunk wrote: Ok, maybe I didn't make myself clear.... YES, it DOES work I promise you. I tested using a spectraflex patch cable I had. Using JUST the cable when you plug it in the send and return you WILL hear a difference in the ambient sound level and while playing.... After seeing this I decided to experiment with the Sonic Stomp in various places in the effects chain and it was HUGE in the effects loop...
When a double blind ABY test shows it works I'll believe you. Til then I'll choose to believe this is simple selection bias.
When you can't explain why others think different then label it bias. Just like some politicians we know. :lol:
Actually selection and confirmation bias are pretty well documented human behavior. It's WHY we use things like double blind and ABY testing, because the last thing you can trust is your own brain and ears. Imagining you CAN trust them just means you don't understand selection or confirmation bias.

Let me add here, you're believing that two electrically identical circuits, which consist of nothing more than wires and switches, sound significantly different. This isn't like two fuzz pedals with different circuits, or a tube versus a solid state amp. These circuits are IDENTICAL and yet you hear a difference. It's a classic example of selection / confirmation bias in action.

Unless one circuit is BROKEN (i.e. a bad switch in your amp etc) then you can't hear a difference because it just isn't there.

DtroitPunk
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:29 pm

CharlieP wrote:
ScottMarlowe wrote:
DtroitPunk wrote: Ok, maybe I didn't make myself clear.... YES, it DOES work I promise you. I tested using a spectraflex patch cable I had. Using JUST the cable when you plug it in the send and return you WILL hear a difference in the ambient sound level and while playing.... After seeing this I decided to experiment with the Sonic Stomp in various places in the effects chain and it was HUGE in the effects loop...
When a double blind ABY test shows it works I'll believe you. Til then I'll choose to believe this is simple selection bias.
When you can't explain why others think different then label it bias. Just like some politicians we know. :lol:
Good point... I am not usually one ever accused of selection OR confirmation bias. I am not an emotionally driven person I tend to deal in facts and what I know. I didn't know if there could be anything to it or not... I let my ears do the test and I absolutely COULD hear the difference.

DtroitPunk
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:39 pm

[/quote]Actually selection and confirmation bias are pretty well documented human behavior. It's WHY we use things like double blind and ABY testing, because the last thing you can trust is your own brain and ears. Imagining you CAN trust them just means you don't understand selection or confirmation bias.

Let me add here, you're believing that two electrically identical circuits, which consist of nothing more than wires and switches, sound significantly different. This isn't like two fuzz pedals with different circuits, or a tube versus a solid state amp. These circuits are IDENTICAL and yet you hear a difference. It's a classic example of selection / confirmation bias in action.

Unless one circuit is BROKEN (i.e. a bad switch in your amp etc) then you can't hear a difference because it just isn't there.[/quote]

Okay,

Unless you actually were a Peavey engineer OR have access to technical schematics you can NOT say this categorically. Ordinarily, you would be correct . That doesn't equate to always being correct or being correct in this particular instance.

All I can tell you is what I experienced and heard. I am 100% convinced it is not my imagination and can do hearing tests with others in my house to establish if they too hear a difference and you would STILL insist I had influenced them etc...

You need to test this for YOURSELF before you run down everyone who says it works. Otherwise you conflate your opinion with fact.

More than this you already have an expectation of what YOU believe is fact here. That means that you, yourself are guilty of confirmation bias since you are almost unequivocally stating that everyone who hears a difference is wrong with no evidence other than your opinion.

ScottMarlowe
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by ScottMarlowe » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:52 am

DtroitPunk wrote:
Okay,

Unless you actually were a Peavey engineer OR have access to technical schematics you can NOT say this categorically. Ordinarily, you would be correct . That doesn't equate to always being correct or being correct in this particular instance.
The Valveking schematics are available online. They quite clearly show no buffer circuit.

DtroitPunk
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:21 pm

ScottMarlowe wrote:
DtroitPunk wrote:
Okay,

Unless you actually were a Peavey engineer OR have access to technical schematics you can NOT say this categorically. Ordinarily, you would be correct . That doesn't equate to always being correct or being correct in this particular instance.
The Valveking schematics are available online. They quite clearly show no buffer circuit.
Interesting. Are the schematics for the VK1 or II model or do you know if they're the same except for cosmetics?

I assure you I had no expectation one way or the other but since so many people talked about it I decided to try it for myself. As other posters on TDPRi said "He's right about that effects loop thing. It's not like night and day, but there is a difference." Another poster said "If you're not using the effects loop then jump it with a patch cable. The way the circuit is designed the fx loop bleeds off some treble when nothing is in it. Trust me you'll hear a difference"

I don't make the assumption that your bias makes you unable to be honest with yourself or make a fair evaluation. That is why I invite you, when you get a chance to go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash and try an older VK112 (with wings on grill and no white chickenhead knobs) I am SURE you will detect the difference if you are able to play and test it without too much other noise.

ultimately though? Who cares? I know what I know and it is not just "wishful thinking" it helps me get my tone where I want it so I couldn't possibly care less if you think I am wrong or am wasting my time...

Play what you like and believe what you like. God bless!

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CharlieP
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by CharlieP » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:11 pm

DtroitPunk wrote:
ScottMarlowe wrote:
DtroitPunk wrote:
Okay,

Unless you actually were a Peavey engineer OR have access to technical schematics you can NOT say this categorically. Ordinarily, you would be correct . That doesn't equate to always being correct or being correct in this particular instance.
The Valveking schematics are available online. They quite clearly show no buffer circuit.
Interesting. Are the schematics for the VK1 or II model or do you know if they're the same except for cosmetics?

I assure you I had no expectation one way or the other but since so many people talked about it I decided to try it for myself. As other posters on TDPRi said "He's right about that effects loop thing. It's not like night and day, but there is a difference." Another poster said "If you're not using the effects loop then jump it with a patch cable. The way the circuit is designed the fx loop bleeds off some treble when nothing is in it. Trust me you'll hear a difference"

I don't make the assumption that your bias makes you unable to be honest with yourself or make a fair evaluation. That is why I invite you, when you get a chance to go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash and try an older VK112 (with wings on grill and no white chickenhead knobs) I am SURE you will detect the difference if you are able to play and test it without too much other noise.

ultimately though? Who cares? I know what I know and it is not just "wishful thinking" it helps me get my tone where I want it so I couldn't possibly care less if you think I am wrong or am wasting my time...

Play what you like and believe what you like. God bless!
To say there is no difference doesn't make sense. Each input Send/Return has a 1K resistor that is disconnected with switching. Explain how 2K less resistance will not boost the signal!
Charlie
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DtroitPunk
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:33 am

[/quote]To say there is no difference doesn't make sense. Each input Send/Return has a 1K resistor that is disconnected with switching. Explain how 2K less resistance will not boost the signal![/quote]

I wish we could get a categorical answer from Peavey or some amp technician... Seems to me that if each input/output on the effects loop has this resistor it might account for the slight but noticeable effect so many of us are observing...

Of course some people think it's all in our heads and I am sure THAT seems more likely and entirely reasonable to them... LOL.

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CharlieP
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by CharlieP » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:30 pm

That's like saying there is no difference between Input 1 and Input 2, it is all in your head!
Charlie
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rogue777
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by rogue777 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:07 pm

The effects jumper thing - its just a unity gain (<1) stage, 1-transistor, to change the source impedance to a low-source impedance so it can drive any effects device put in the loop.

Without that, an effects device could load a high impedance source, screwing up the signal.
See Q2 on the classic 30 schematic. Can't find the Valueking Schematic, it may not have it.

Without the jumper that transistor is by passed, so I'm sure the circuity is designed to work right.
If anyone can hear a difference, all the power to you, make it work for you.

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:25 pm

rogue777 wrote:The effects jumper thing - its just a unity gain (<1) stage, 1-transistor, to change the source impedance to a low-source impedance so it can drive any effects device put in the loop.

Without that, an effects device could load a high impedance source, screwing up the signal.
See Q2 on the classic 30 schematic. Can't find the Valueking Schematic, it may not have it.

Without the jumper that transistor is by passed, so I'm sure the circuity is designed to work right.
If anyone can hear a difference, all the power to you, make it work for you.
Well, thanks for the input but I would LOVE for someone to be able to confirm this and explain it from a technical standpoint. I don't care about being right I would just love for more people to know (if) this is real...

Helped me and many others and I would LOVE to know how/why it works.

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by lionheart » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:34 pm

If the signal in the loop is converted to a lower impedance then you will definitely get a slight treble and prescence lift with a small increase in gain, just like using a low impedance line driver buffer to compensate for treble and volume loss when using very long input leads.
Tech heads, shoot me if I'm wrong but I hear a definite positive effect on the VK50's loop too when jumpered - but I do have bat's ears !! Whether it's due to a buffer or not I don't know as I can't read schematics too well.

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:02 pm

lionheart wrote:If the signal in the loop is converted to a lower impedance then you will definitely get a slight treble and prescence lift with a small increase in gain, just like using a low impedance line driver buffer to compensate for treble and volume loss when using very long input leads.
Tech heads, shoot me if I'm wrong but I hear a definite positive effect on the VK50's loop too when jumpered - but I do have bat's ears !! Whether it's due to a buffer or not I don't know as I can't read schematics too well.
This is exactly what I am hearing, just a hair extra gain and a little more usable frequency...

I am quite sure it isn't in my head and would love to get someone to explain it and settle this debate once and for all.

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CharlieP
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by CharlieP » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:58 pm

No it isn't a big difference but it is a difference that can be heard. Case closed!
Charlie
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:58 pm

CharlieP wrote:No it isn't a big difference but it is a difference that can be heard. Case closed!
Well, while I agree with you... These are experiential references and as such are subjective rather than objective...

Would love for the Guitar Tech equivalent of Beakman (Beakmans World) to show up and explain this in a way that conclusively addresses it for all the naysayers.

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CharlieP
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by CharlieP » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:59 pm

DtroitPunk wrote:
CharlieP wrote:No it isn't a big difference but it is a difference that can be heard. Case closed!
Well, while I agree with you... These are experiential references and as such are subjective rather than objective...

Would love for the Guitar Tech equivalent of Beakman (Beakmans World) to show up and explain this in a way that conclusively addresses it for all the naysayers.
I don't need someone to tell me what they think. Seeing and hearing is the proof. If you are weak minded let them lead you! 2K is a physical difference therefore I hear it too. Don't tell me there is no difference in the circuit and call it unity gain. That is a BS statement!
Charlie
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