VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

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Mockingbirdmadness
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by Mockingbirdmadness » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:33 pm

I tried that jumper the effects loop trick, holy crap, this thing SIZZLES now :D soooooo niiiiiice
Das Gear:
Amps:
1962 SANO 2x12
Peavey 6505+ 1x12
Guitars:
1996 BC Rich Mockingbird Special X
1992 Peavey Predator
2007 ESP/LTD M200SR
2007 Ibanez VTB700
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Dean Metalman Z
Dean Hillsboro

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by phreddybee » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:34 am

Tedzomplin wrote:I was checking out some other sites to read stuff on the VK's. I was skeptical on lots of stuff I saw.Then I tried one of the so called "simple mods" or tricks for the VK.Well folks,the FX loop jumper cable really does make a difference.I had always felt my VK100 head had a sort of a light blanket over its tone.I felt somehow there might be a capacitor or some circuit mod to unleash more clarity out of the amp.Well guys,just plug a jumper cable into the FX loop jacks and hear the difference for yourself.I dig it.It works.You get a clearer crisper tone.Go figure.One guy says it engages the FX loop buffer op amp or something.It just works.Made me happy.My VK is now more in the zone.
ok - tell me how this loop jumper works please.......

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CharlieP
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by CharlieP » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:22 pm

Kind of negates your EFX, I just add a EQ to the loop along with the other pedal (delay). No need for a jumper. Loop is for pedals, not jumpers!
Charlie
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Mockingbirdmadness
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by Mockingbirdmadness » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:59 pm

CharlieP wrote:Kind of negates your EFX, I just add a EQ to the loop along with the other pedal (delay). No need for a jumper. Loop is for pedals, not jumpers!
I believe that the jumper is for those who don't use effects, like me.
Das Gear:
Amps:
1962 SANO 2x12
Peavey 6505+ 1x12
Guitars:
1996 BC Rich Mockingbird Special X
1992 Peavey Predator
2007 ESP/LTD M200SR
2007 Ibanez VTB700
Basses:
Dean Metalman Z
Dean Hillsboro

jjonquet
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by jjonquet » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:01 pm

okay...just bought a valveking 100 head ...was totally skeptical, and not too impressed with the tone...almost returned it before i read about some easy mods...i can now confirm this head roars if properly tweaked...heres all you need to do ..1. do the effects loop trick on the front , simple easy 2. tweak the a/b on back to full a/b power setting.. 3. for $19 i changed out the V2 tube , this is the 12ax7 tube in the front of the amp , right over the gain knob, middle position..replaced it with a tung sol russian made high gain 12ax7 ....ta daaaaa!!! different amp altogether!!! iam blown away at the change in tone , the harmonics and the added gain/distortion!! if you are looking for more of a modern mesa/soldano sound ..this is cheap..wow...if you haven't...do this now \m/

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by midnightlaundry » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:25 am

Tedzomplin wrote:I was checking out some other sites to read stuff on the VK's. I was skeptical on lots of stuff I saw.Then I tried one of the so called "simple mods" or tricks for the VK.Well folks,the FX loop jumper cable really does make a difference.I had always felt my VK100 head had a sort of a light blanket over its tone.I felt somehow there might be a capacitor or some circuit mod to unleash more clarity out of the amp.Well guys,just plug a jumper cable into the FX loop jacks and hear the difference for yourself.I dig it.It works.You get a clearer crisper tone.Go figure.One guy says it engages the FX loop buffer op amp or something.It just works.Made me happy.My VK is now more in the zone.
What model/brand of tone and coupling caps does the VK use?

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by midnightlaundry » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:12 am

I checked the BOM, and it looks like these are all ceramic caps. These were chosen for cost effectiveness, and not tone. If you think your tone is harsh and or fuzzy, it's the ceramic caps. You could change all of these and get a totally new amp.

These are the caps that most of the big boys use, but I left some out.

Malory 150's - Polyester. Most Marshall type builds. The white caps, but they used to be yellow.

Image

OD 715's - Polypropylene. Boogie, Fender. The Orange caps.

Image

OD 6PS's - Polyester. Trainwreck, and Dumble. The orange caps.

Image

Wima's - Polyester and Polypropylene depending on the model. Diezel, Bogner. The red box caps.

Image

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65 SG
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by 65 SG » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:36 pm

Not sure where that question is headed but I'm glad you asked, and answered, it. This certainly needs to be addressed / dispelled since I am unaware of any qualms from VK owners over the tonal quality of the amp in relation to the types of components used. And we have some highly experienced technically knowledgeable members contributing on a regular basis so, yeah, interesting...

Its funny how much that Bogner PCB layout, construction technique and cabling resembles a Valve King. I mean, I actually have looked inside a ValveKing, actually several of them, MANY times, so I can honestly say that. It is amazing, like WOW.

Its funny how when I checked the published Peavey VK BOMs (to verify what I already know from actual, visual experience), gee, umm, sorry but it is certainly NOT all ceramic caps. In fact that is not even close to the truth. "PE" and/or "PES" is the abbreviation for "PolyEster". "PPS" = PolyPropylene (maybe polystyrene, but I doubt it) and in fact there are very few ceramic capacitors, aside from low value ones, in the signal chain and/or tone stack. "From what I can see", from an engineering perspective, the temperature coefficients and dissipation factors are appropriate for the placement of these capacitors, also. NPOs are used for signal path and the el cheapo Z5U and X7R in DC/bypass duty. Polystyrene or silver mica would be "better" from a raw specification standpoint (than NPO ceramic), but unless the circuit is VERY high gain VERY low noise or RF, use of those types of capacitors (respectively) is uncalled for and yes, adds nothing but cost.

Its funny how, yes, the VK is optimized for cost - funny because "from what I can see" the Bogner (at least) is no different as it DOES employ ceramic capacitors AND likely doesn't use more costly capacitors where there is no technical basis for selecting them.

Its also funny how relevant a 4-year old thread can be :lol:
'03 SG Special, '08 LP Special DC, '60s Dano/Silvertone, Epi Moderne, Epi EB-0, '60s Telestar semi-hollow,
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midnightlaundry
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by midnightlaundry » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:57 pm

Nobody uses all ceramics in tone stacks. Why did PV?

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65 SG
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by 65 SG » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:21 pm

Nobody? I don't know about that. I'd turn the question around and ask "why does anyone use anything other than ceramic capacitors in a tone stack" because there is really no legitimate technical reason for selecting polyester or polypropylene in most audio applications since ceramic capacitors are superior in almost every way, especially in tone control circuits (lower ESL and ESR which means a more purely capacitive response and smaller physical size means less noise pickup). In small value / high impedance audio applications (<1000pF) anything other than ceramic is probably not driven purely by electrical requirements...

History, design momentum, plagiarism and Marketing are the main reasons (IMO) why modern day amp designs insist on using other "superior" types.

History. In the 50s, 60s, and into the 70s, almost everything was turret terminal or eyelet construction, and almost nothing was PCB. And ceramic capacitors were limited to radial disc ceramic which maxed out at about 1.0uF, much less at higher voltages, without getting very large and expensive. That is one reason why plate coupling capacitors are seldom ceramic in audio. Also, the radial lead arrangement of disc ceramics was simply not well suited to the construction methods used at the time. Strikes One and Two.

Poly caps were (and are) easy to make into larger values by simply adding layers (rolling 'em fatter). And this arrangement was a distinct advantage when nearly everything was axial construction - a designer could standardize on one or two component lengths (which covered capacitors AND resistors) and train the assemblers to mount the components uniformly. A 0.022uF capacitor was the same body length as a 0.15uF capacitor and as a result, "point to point wired" turret and eyelet boards do not have (or need) much variation in terminal spacings.

BOMs from this era reflect the PHYSICAL advantages of selecting axial lead, plastic (or paper!) dielectric, foil capacitors because that's what was (a) available and (b) worked out better for assembly.

With the onslaught of surface mount technology, the capacity limitation of ceramic capacitors has become less of a problem, due to multilayer construction. It's not uncommon to find MLCs with values of 10uF or even higher. In tonestack applications where the DC plate voltage is blocked by another capacitor, there's no need for capacitor working voltages above perhaps 100V.

I think Peavey uses ceramic capacitors in their tone stacks because their design engineers are well versed in audio circuit design and because their circuits are actually engineered, not copied from someone else and tweaked. They also use appropriate specs and the BOM reflects this.

An easy to understand reference on ceramic cap types is here: http://www.cde.com/catalogs/ceramperf.pdf

If someone, on the other hand, is intent on making guitar amplifiers and is either lazy or not well versed in component selection and/or circuit theory, analysis and design and gee golly really admires the F-Word or M-Word Vintage Tone Stack, they sometimes copy it verbatim - values as well as the component types. When I see big high voltage caps on a PCB where low voltage caps will suffice, to me that screams "blindly copied".

To be fair, history and design momentum can cause this too, where a company transitions from one construction technology to another (e.g. point to point to PCB) and the original designer is long gone, the design is considered Immutable Gospel, and/or it's just easier to simply ape what worked in the past.

The other reason, and one that so-called "Boutique" amp makers rely heavily on, is misinformation AKA Pure Marketing B.S. A prime example is the "bumblebee" and/or tone capacitor rage - which has ZERO technical basis - it is 110% predatory activity based heavily on mystique and backed by irrelevant, misleading "technical" data (resonant frequency, ringing damping, leakage factor, blar blar blar ad nauseum). Hundreds of duped guitarists and techs will swear to their graves that they have achieved tonal nirvana anyway, and call people like me big A-holes for doubting the Magick Mojo (well, they ARE easier than a flimsy ceramic cap to solder across a couple pots inside a control cavity - but certainly not $50 easier).

OK so that leads to MY question, which I think is only fair to raise - why does a Bogner XTC head sell for $3500 and a Peavey of basically identical power and construction (VK100 head) sell for $3000 LESS. In defensible, technical, objective terms please...

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by midnightlaundry » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 am

65 SG wrote:
OK so that leads to MY question, which I think is only fair to raise - why does a Bogner XTC head sell for $3500 and a Peavey of basically identical power and construction (VK100 head) sell for $3000 LESS. In defensible, technical, objective terms please...
( comment deleted by moderator)..

AND no PV sounds as good as a Bogner. If they did, everyone would be using them. Now go split hairs on a spec sheet while the buying public uses their ears..
:)

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by MikeScott » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:06 pm

65 SG's post is pretty technical, :) it also make a great point, if I understand it correctly, and i read and re-read it... there is just to much hype nowdays, people are buying into and spending money on fairy tales and manufacturer advertising, believing it to be fact. Nowdays things are extremely convulted with so many blogs.

I believe you should pay attention more to your ears and go with what you think is good not so much what people suggest should be good. If somebody suggests that bright flourescent orange speaker cone paper sounds good, somebody will buy it and swear to god it's unsurpassed, in tonal nirvananess.

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65 SG
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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by 65 SG » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:59 pm

midnightlaundry wrote: ******
Yup, that's about what I expected, aside from the racism... although I was really hoping for a consistent defensive strategy, maybe something based on how a $5 handful of "better" capacitors equates to the $3000 differential. Since, as I pointed out, construction-wise they are essentially IDENTICAL :lol:
MikeScott wrote:I believe you should pay attention more to your ears and go with what you think is good not so much what people suggest should be good.
Agree and, funny you should mention, in my early days I had a setup that was one part bright flourescent orange plywood speaker cabinet & Jensen driver with expanded metal grille, and one part silverface Twin Reverb with a random knob complement and no cabinet around it at all that, taken together, totally sounded like crap - but only to the jaded gear snobs who gazed at it past their upraised noses. I called it Medusa because it wasn't pretty and turned seemingly rational people into snake headed blathering idiots. :o

peace

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by DtroitPunk » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:58 am

Mockingbirdmadness wrote:
CharlieP wrote:Kind of negates your EFX, I just add a EQ to the loop along with the other pedal (delay). No need for a jumper. Loop is for pedals, not jumpers!
I believe that the jumper is for those who don't use effects, like me.
Hmm, okay. So, right now to get near the tone I want I am using a Rocktron Silver Dragon into a BBE Sonic Stomp and then into input one on the clean channel.

Must admit I am not sure on the proper use of an effects loop... With my current set up will I get any benefit from putting a jumper in the loop or should I be putting all pedals into the loop?

When would I use the send and when return? It "Looks" like I would plug guitar directly into input 1 and then send signal out to pedals and then in through return but I am not sure...

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Re: VALVEKING TIPS TRICKS AND MODS

Post by ScottMarlowe » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:06 pm

A jumper in the loop is pretty much an old wive's tale. The only reason to do it really is if your internal switch for it is iffy etc and putting a jumper in gets the signal through cleanly. It's right up there with people who think their power cord has a large effect on their sound etc.

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