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 Post subject: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:29 am 
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Hi all! Just had a woofer blow out on one of my SP5XT's. I've heard that the xt line had issues with the Scorpion woofers. Would one of the SP2's 15" Black Widow be a wise upgrade for the SP5, as I'm going to be running them fairly hard with the garage band I'm involved with.

Currently, they're being used full range in parallel with a pair of SP2G's to give the amp a 4 ohm load, running a Samson SX-1800; specs show (RMS) 600 wpc @ 4 ohms, or 400wpc @ 8 ohms. Future planning is to get an EQ that will allow all bass below 100hz to go to a seperate amp to power subs. Am I expecting too much for the 2g's and the 5xt's to handle that load?

thanks all!

Sid


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:48 am 
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Welcome to the forum. I searched for the SP5XT for a spec sheet and did not find it in Peavey Product Support, I may have overlooked it or it may not be there but. I will give you my opinion and I am certain others will chime in as well. I do not know your skillsets so please do not take any of my advice as criticism but as advice from a self taught soundman with 25 years of experience.
I would not recommend changing to the Black Widow because your speaker cabinet was designed for the Scorpion and my experience has been substituting speakers usually results in less than satisfactory results.
I suspect your speaker was blown due to clipping something in your system and not from a faulty component.
I have found over the years that most speakers are destroyed due to clipping the power amp or something in your system. This results in either the voice coil burning up and a burnt varnish smell or speaker overexcursion and the speaker coming apart. Knowing how garage bands are, been there, done that, I would suspect it was clipping. I would need to know the information off the data plate on your particular model speaker cabinets to know for sure but I suspect that running (2)speaker cabinets per amp channel resulted in them being underpowered. Underpowering is just as bad as overpowering your system.
You do need a graphic equalizer for your system but what you need to divide the lows to seperate cabinets is an electronic crossover.
I am going to post some links for you to read about sound equipment.
Read all these white papers and if your questions are not answered feel free to ask more questions.


http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... isited.cfm

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... pter_2.pdf

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... _POWER.pdf

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... ossary.cfm

download/file.php?id=6054

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:37 am 
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Thank you for those reference docs, they were a good read!! I'm an electronics technician so I know a good bit about the volts/ohm's/watts/clipping scenarios :mrgreen: but am most definitely a rookie when it comes to being a soundman. Leaning by the school of 'hard knocks' isn't always fun, but it can be exciting! I have been reading a ton of different forums on the net-better to learn from someone else's mistakes.

From reading other posts on this board & elsewhere, I'm betting I blew it (or it was previously damaged as it was acquired in trade) as we miked up the drummers' set a few weeks ago. I thought by engaging the 30hz filters on the mixer they'd protect the speakers from the kick drum...betting I was wrong now :) Yes, another leaning experience

Specs on the SP5XT's say 400 Watts continuous, 800 Watts program,
1600 Watts peak.

Specs for the SP2G's are 300 Watts continuous, 600 Watts program, 1200 watts peak.

Specs for the amp are (Samson SX-1800) 600 wpc @ 4 ohms, or 400wpc @ 8 ohms. (RMS)

I'd always read it's better to have an amp that exceeds your speakers limits, and to run it without clipping than to expose the speakers to a clipping signal.

I've always been very careful when setting things up at soundcheck to set all the levels coming into the mixer 1st, then run the mixer up to averaging around the 0db mark with maybe +1, +2 on peaks, then dialed up the amp so the 'clip' lights just start to illuminate, then reduce the amp to the next lower detent on the pots. Only seen the clip lights come on faintly once or twice during practice, and I keep a fairly keen eye on it. Monitors are another story-the bane of my life!!

Mixer: I'm looking at picking up is a Behringer FBQ model; has an electronic crossover built in with seperate sub out xlr connector, also has high & low pass filtering. Depending on which model sub I find, I figure a 100hz crossover should protect the sp's a bit more. Amp for the subs is an Altec 9446, so that'll have plenty of kick.

Thanks again to everyone-I do appreciate any comments as I'm definitly a newbie to sound! Any and all comments welcome!!


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:00 am 
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You need to set low cut filters at 50hz (if you have them)(at the very least pull all the frequency below 50 out of your graphic EQ) as anything below 50 is mud and it takes lots of power to reproduce lower frequency. The kick drum and lower end of a bass gtr are above 50 hz. The lower the frequency you produce the more power you are using and you are generating lots of heat and can have speaker over excursion. Ideally if you had dedicated sub cabinets I would run them from 50hz to 100hz and crossover the tops at 100hz.

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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:43 am 
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>>>
I've always been very careful when setting things up at soundcheck to set all the levels coming into the mixer 1st,
<<<

Might we ask how you are going about setting up the incoming levels in the mixer?


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:02 am 
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Marty McCann wrote:
>>>
I've always been very careful when setting things up at soundcheck to set all the levels coming into the mixer 1st,
<<<

Might we ask how you are going about setting up the incoming levels in the mixer?


Hi Marty! Mixer is a Behringer UB2442FX. With the mains turned down, I use the PFL/solo switch to set the input level per channel. Usually have the singer start (yelling?? :) ) sing at high level, set him for around +1db, background vocals same. Lead guitar around 0db, bass guitar around -2db. Lead guitarist goes directly into the mixer after his effects box and listens thru the monitors, bass has a direct XLR feed from the amp. When we mic'd the drums, set the toms/cymbals around -5, kick at -10 due to the high peaks with drumming variations. And I occasionally recheck them while playing as they tend to drift up after a while.

Was just worried I am hitting the mains with a little too much power, but like i posted, betting the kick drum was the culprit. Have removed the drums from the mix until we get the eq/subs installed...it's still a work in progress :)

Thanks all!

Sid


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:17 pm 
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You may be running out of headroom in the summing amps of the mixer with that method. If you calibrated every channel for 0 dB, then in summing you gain an additional +3 dB for every doubling of the number of channels mixed together.

2 chan = +3 dB
4 = +6
8 = +9
16 = +12
24 = 13.8
32 = +15 dB

Optimizing mixer gain structure is one thing. However optimizing the entire system at hand for the venue is another matter. As the mixer's individual channel input gains then becomes the variable. If you have too much rig for the gig, you simply use less input gain. If you do not have enough rig for the gig, then optimizing what you have while still maintaining headroom is the key.

Some folks never take the above into account, thus their MMV.


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Marty McCann wrote:
You may be running out of headroom in the summing amps of the mixer with that method.



I never knew about this, thanks Marty! I did notice that the output meter on the mixer usually runs around +2, +3 when everythings in use, and ensured the amp isn't lighting the clip lights, but never thought I might be inducing clipping IN the mixer. Although the mixer led's go to +10, then have a 'clip' indicator above that, I never let the levels get that high. Looks like I need to re-read the manual, or find a book on mixers.

Thanks guys!!


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 Post subject: Re: Upgrading SP5XT's?? And also-am I overpowering this setup?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Do a search for "gain structure" and you will find a post by either Marty or myself that goes step by step on setting gain in the mixer. It's a method that works and really goes a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG way to preventing clipping in the mixer.

Be forewarned that the procedure outlined is going to seem almost 180 degrees from what you are currently doing.

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