QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

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drummerkid905
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QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:53 pm

I figure I should give some background.

We have been using QW-2's over SP118's for a while and it has worked well. In that scenario we used a RMX 2450 in bridged for the tops and a bridged CS800S for the subs.

We just added a pair of QW-118's, a CS4080, and a BBE DS24 system processor (would have loved to get the VSX but the budget fell short)

I'm thinking I'll use one side of the 4080 for subs. I'll use the other side of the 4080 for the QW-2 Lows. Then I'll use one side of the CS800S for the QW-2 Horns (400w into 4 ohms so 200w into each horn). Eventually I'll add another 4080 and put subs on one 4080 and qw2 lows on the other one. Then I'll use the CS800S in stereo for the highs.

I calculated out the limiters with a formula from one of SemperFi Steve's posts and came up with the following:
-1.31 on the Hi's
6.08 on the Mid's
7.84 on the Low's
Is that reasonable?

I set the crossovers at 150 and 1200 with 18db bessel filters. I also put a hi pass on the subs at 40.

The one thing I really can't figure out is the CD Horn EQ for the QW-2 Hi's. I know I need pad down around the crossover point and get a 6db per octave slope around 3 or 4k. I really can't figure out how to get there with the parametric EQ. Any help here would be awesome.

The main issue with the BBE is the time delay is in .5 ms increments. According to the spec sheet the qw2 mid needs a .27 delay. Should i just use no delay or round up to the .5? I realize either one will be less than ideal, just trying to find the lesser of 2 evils.

I realize the easy answer is just to get a VSX. I hope to be adding one in the near future.

Dookie
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by Dookie » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:22 am

Just a thought.
You already have a CS800s amp. This amp has available crossover modules for it.
The module is called the X1.

( I see one available on ebay right now just as an example

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Peavey-X-1-cros ... 20cbbb5d53 )

It can supply a 3 way 150/1200hz crossover with CD eq for the horn and subsonic filtering. Alot of the needed eq/shaping is also included.

http://www.peavey.com/assets/literature ... 300736.pdf

I own the same BBE crossover and ended up putting it on my home stereo. It does not have alot of drive in the output section. You will have to put the input to +6db and the outputs pretty much maxed to put out enough voltage to drive your 4080 amps. This puts you close to clipping the input/output section all the time to get the output you need. Leaning out the window big time! :shock: The limiters are just so/so in the unit so you may be better off just using the DDT on your amps and using common sense. The "Sound" of the unit is pretty good but to me it seems like a -10dbu DJ crossover bumped up with XLRs. If you look at the output specs on the unit you will see what I mean.

The X-1 should get you by until you can get a VSX crossover. You may find the BBE just doesn't have enough output drive.

Dookie

EDIT: added manual

drummerkid905
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:56 am

That module seems perfect for me right now. The only thing I noticed in the manual is that the outputs are unbalanced. Is that ok?

drummerkid905
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:08 pm

I took the BBE back while i had the chance and got the VSX. I can't wait to use it!

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SemperFiSound
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by SemperFiSound » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:24 am

drummerkid905 wrote:and got the VSX.
Cool. Now we are getting into Pro-Audio.....

Your next move is to get the preset and ensure that the preset is the same on both the A & B sides.

Post when you have questions. (Not "if", but "when"!)

Cheers,
Steve
SemperFi Sound; the website
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"The Art of War teaches us to rely, not upon the calculated likelihood of
the enemy's coming or not, but on our own readiness to receive him... no
matter what he does." Sun Tzu

drummerkid905
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:10 pm

So UPS hasn't delivered my VSX yet (supposed to be here tomorrow), so I'm sure I'll have more questions once that comes in, but I have a few questions about the patch panel wiring.

Right now my FOH rack will be one CS4080HZ and one CS800S. I hope to be adding another 4080 soon.

I'll be running 1 QW-2 Bi-amped per side and then the 2 qw118's center clustered. For the patch panel, I was thinking I would wire up one 4 pin speakon for the QW-2's (1+ 1- to Ch A on the 4080, 2+ 2- to Ch A of the CS800S), and then the other speakon would be for the subs and I would daisy chain the subs together (1+ 1- wired to Ch B of 4080, 2+ 2- unused)

I was wondering if there was a way to wire one channel of the 4080 to 2 different speakons (i.e. Ch A of 4080 running 1+ 1- as well as 2+ 2- on the subs with a specially wired cable between the 2 subs.

If that would be possible I'd like to do something similar with the QW-2's and split the lows like that, then use one channel of the CS800S for each of the QW-2 Hi's. That way I could run a dedicated cable from the amp rack to each speaker instead of daisy chaining (I'm thinking that would mean 2 shorter 8 ohm runs instead of one long 4ohm one)

If you could let me know how you would wire up the patch panel in this situation that would be awesome.

drummerkid905
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:05 pm

So I got the VSX on ebay and then the next day I saw one used at gc for way too cheap. So I got both. The gc one has a silver front while the one from ebay has the blue/gray. The ebay one doesn't have a backlight - is there an issue with it or is that the design?

Anyway, when I hooked everything up in the garage there was a terrible hiss from the horns of the qw-2's. It seemed like the noise floor was WAY too high. I realize there is always noise in loudspeaker systems but this was very audible from 30ft away. and the horns overpowered the rest of the system when I played music through it. So I looked up the voltage gain of the CS800S and it's 29db (35db bridged) not the 32db (x40) that I thought all Peavey amps excpet the IPR's were. So how do I go about balancing the gains on my amps? My dad has a voltage meter (think it's called a multimeter) and I read in one of marty's posts that we should run a 1 volt signal into each amp and then turn the knob up till we hit 40 then it'll be x40. Then we'd use the same signal and turn the amp to 20 volts and it'd be x20. Did I understand that correctly?

Also if we set all of the gains to X20 the only thing we would need to change in the preset would be the limiters right?

Is there anything else that would cause the hiss from the horns. The hiss is GONE (well there is a very small amount of amp noise) without the VSX plugged in. Is there something else I'm missing?

Josjor
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by Josjor » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:12 am

First off, make sure that all your cables are good. Secondly, use the newer of the VSX's as some of the earlier versions did have a bit of floor noise, IIRC. Thirdly, make sure you're running the latest firmware on your VSX. Go to the download page and at the very top of the files you'll see a firmware download. Fourth, double check that the left and right factory presets are the same. The left one is the correct one so copy and paste from that. I don't have my VSX handy, but I believe the high output is actually cut by about 6dB on the factory preset. Make sure that is the case with yours.

Finally, give us a complete rundown on what all your amps are. That can help us trouble shoot.

Link to downloads including firmware: http://peavey.com/support/software/vsx26_presets.cfm
www.yandasmusic.com
Don't believe me. I'm just guessing.
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thenosboss
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by thenosboss » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:19 am

Most important...make sure all your cables into and out of your VSX are balanced XLR. Check your cables with a cable tester. A faulty cable could still pass an unbalanced signal. Or swap cables around to see if the problem moves to another output.
Yes, Josjor is correct in saying the highs should be at -6db.

Brad
Brad's Sound Company, Darwin, NT, Australia
8 x QW218, 8 x QW2F, 6 x SP15M
10 x CS4080, 3 x CS3000, 2 x CS2000, 1 x CS800x4, 1 x IPR1600
3 x VSX26, 2 x CEL-2a, 13 x QF131, 2 x PV231
32FX, 24FX, 16FX, Yamaha IM8-32
website: http://www.bradsound.com.au

drummerkid905
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Re: QW-2 QW-118 Tri Amp Questions

Post by drummerkid905 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:14 am

I'll try updating the firmware tonight. I tried moving the cables and it always ended up to where the highs had much more noise than everything else (i.e. tried the switching the mid and high xlr's and the noise remained the same). Amps are a 4080 and a CS800S. ChA of the 4080 going to subs, ChB of 4080 going to mids, ChA of CS800S going to hi's, ChB of CS800S unused. I always heard all Peavey amps were x40 voltage gain (32db), but when I looked up the CS800S it's voltage gain is 29db (we measured 30 volts output with a 1 volt signal). So we set both channels of both amps to x20 (we did this with a multitester but it ended up being -6 on the 4080 and -3 on the CS800S if I remember correctly - I'll check tonight).

The noise is obviously better with the lower gain and it sounds balanced now that the amps match in gain. It still seems like there is an issue but my dad is thinking that maybe this is just standard noise for the VSX26. Is there audible noise from anyone else's horns in a QW setup?

One thing I'm wondering about to help with the noise issue is bringing output 3 from the vsx from the -6 it's currently at to 0 and then bringing that channel of the CS800S down 6db. My thinking is that would bring the noise floor on the highs down 6db and the levels would remain balanced. But I'm not sure if the VSX db's are the same as the amp db's (amp says dBv, can't find anything about the VSX). Is this a bad idea?

Also the noise remains the same even when the VSX is muted. As I stated earlier I have 2 VSX's and I have the exact same noise with both.

We don't have a cable tester but I get the feeling we should get one. I tried 3 different brand new cables from audiopile on the highs with the same issue. We tried 2 different cables between the mixer and the VSX but I can try a few more tonight.

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