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 Post subject: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Location: New Orleans
Hello all, I am new to the board as I have just acquired a Valveking 212. I've been monitoring the board awhile since I got the amp and picked up a lot of good info but I still have some questions. (Sorry if ask about something that has already been covered)

I traded some old stereo equipment and speakers for the amp knowing that I would have problems with the effects loop, so I know I need to get that fixed but if I use a patch cord in there I can position it just so and it works fine. I wanted the amp because I borrowed a friends VK112 for a gig and loved the way my strat sounded through that. It was stock, no mods or tube changes, but it doesn't sound near as good through the 212. I haven't done anything to the 212 as it is stock as well.

My question is, has anyone done any experimenting with chokes, output trannys and such? Do the 212's just have their own voice compared to the 112? (obvious differences aside, speakers & watts)

I play standard rock, blues and funk, covers and originals and I keep the gain at about 3 o'clock and I use very few effects. I have an Egnater Renegade 112 also but seems to be more suited to my Les Paul and not so much the Strat. I guess my sound would be along the lines of Zep, Styx or Aerosmith. I have been playing about 30 years and will continue for 30 more if i can. Thanks for the help.

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Les Paul
Strat
Tele
Classic 50 Head & 212 Cab
Renegade 112
VK212


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:10 pm
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Location: @ Mountain Retreat [Cincinnati Ohio]
Recommend you ask your friend info regarding his VK112......

1) Power tubes make & model

2) Pre-amp tubes make, model, and positions

Tubes vary depending on stock available at time of manufacture.

Tube Pack ------> Shapes Tone

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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Location: @ Mountain Retreat [Cincinnati Ohio]
Stratomaster--

Also ask VK112 owner to share EQ Settings, Volume Settings (Etc)

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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 pm
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Location: New Orleans
Yes I already asked about the tubes and the 112 has Rubys in the power section and EHs in the pre. The 212 has Rubys and JJs. Now I have read much better reviews on the JJ compared to the EH and I guess the Rubys are just a middle of the road type tube. I will probably change the tubes somewhere down the line but for right now I want to figure out why the 2 amps sound so far apart? I've played the Egnater Renegade 112 and 212 in a side by side comparison when I bought the 112 and heard a big difference there because the 212 has 2 different speakers from the factory. But still they were characteristicly the same amp. The VKs aren't even close, not to say the 212 sounds bad, it just doesn't sound like the 112 does with my Strat. I think they should sound closer to the same with the 212 maybe being more broad and open. Moving more air.

I'm wondering how much difference a transformer change would make? Is it the power difference? Maybe, the body controls (reso/pres)? Has anybody else heard a major difference between these 2 amps or is it me? Is it really an upgrade to change the trans and add a choke? Does anybody have experience with these parts and what do they do exactly?

I would really like to make this amp part of my live rig, I think its a great amp, sort of a "Twin" hybrid. I would like to use the Strat with it exclusively. Any ideas? Thank You.

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Les Paul
Strat
Tele
Classic 50 Head & 212 Cab
Renegade 112
VK212


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 27217
Location: @ Mountain Retreat [Cincinnati Ohio]
Try The Following......

Acquire & Install TungSol 12AX7 Position V1 Clean

And, Sovtek 12AX7LPS Position V3 Phase Inverter.

Pre-Amp tubes have tonal impact versus power tubes.

My Gut Feeling.........

You purchased new VK212 and the speakers have not reached "Break-In".

Speakers must receive 40+ hours exercise to reach full tonal & performance potential.

OK to use low to medium volume during exercise period.

Playing guitar 40+ hours not necessary.

Play CD through amp to accumulate exercise hours.

Use "Search Browser"........

Read posts by Forum VK Guru "CharlieP"

He recommends similar "Pre-Amp Tube Pack" and......

Talks The Talk & Walks The Walk Regarding "VK Mod's"

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PAF Classic Series Tube Kit.......Created By Classic30inCincy
Majic Mojo Tradename..........Created By Classic30inCincy
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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:23 pm 
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The VK112 doesn't have a choke either, why would you want to add a choke? If you want to redo the power section of this you'll run into trouble with the low voltage supplies.

You may be underestimating the difference a couple of power tubes makes, can you borrow the 112 from your friend again, and try a couple of things.

Plug into the VK112, connect it's effects send to the VK212's effects return, plug an empty jack into the VK112's return. You have now connected the preamp of the 112 to the power amp of the 212, how does it sound, closer to what you want?

Do the reverse, connect the effects send of the VK212 to the effects return of the 112, plug an empty jack into the VK212's return, plug your guitar into the 212. You are now using the preamp of the 212 with the power section of the 112, hows it sound, closer to what you want?

If the first method gets you closer to the sound, you want to be looking at the pre tubes in the 112 and getting the same ones, with the same gain structures in the 212.

If the second method gets you closer to the sound, you maybe want to pop a couple of those power tubes out, and run the head at 50W, but after several stories I've read on here, I'm checking the heater wiring, and it looks like you'll have to make a couple of dummy tubes, where you just connect the heating elements but snip the pins for the plate and grids, as the power tubes appear to have their heaters wired in series. Worry about that if you get to it. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:05 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 pm
Posts: 3281
Location: Lake Panasoffkee, FL
Adding a choke is not a problem with the VKs.
Image

Image
Use the WIKI link in my signature for other mods and info.

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Charlie
Gib LP Robot 2008 Met. Red, Gib LP 07, 5E3 Build 2014
G5120 Fend Tele Dlx2010 SPL ED w/Tronical Tune
Fend Strat,& SuperSonic 60W112
VK 112 Web OT Rotary Swit.
Bias Mod VK WIKI
http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Cap4 ... lay1083925


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 pm
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Location: New Orleans
Great idea Hemi, I've already texted my friend to borrow this weekend.

Also, I don't think I'm underestimating how much the difference in power can change the tone, I'm think I'm not fully understanding what a choke does for the tone exactly. What I've read online so far is kinda unclear and confusing because it may be just a sales pitch. Certainly I would rather not change anything in the power section but if there are differences there from the factory, then that may be what i'm hearing. I want to keep the amp as original as possible. I will try your suggestion though, sounds ineresting.

Thanks for the pix CharlieP, do you have a choke on your amp?

_________________
Les Paul
Strat
Tele
Classic 50 Head & 212 Cab
Renegade 112
VK212


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 pm
Posts: 3281
Location: Lake Panasoffkee, FL
I have a choke and a Weber OT with a rotary switch. I can switch between 4, 8, 16 or 32 ohm. The OT has a lot more iron.

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Charlie
Gib LP Robot 2008 Met. Red, Gib LP 07, 5E3 Build 2014
G5120 Fend Tele Dlx2010 SPL ED w/Tronical Tune
Fend Strat,& SuperSonic 60W112
VK 112 Web OT Rotary Swit.
Bias Mod VK WIKI
http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Cap4 ... lay1083925


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212 *UPDATE*
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 pm
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Location: New Orleans
Hey guys, hope all had a great holiday.

I tried linking the 2 amps as Hemi suggested and learned alot about the amp I have. The 212 sounded great running throught the 112 but not so much the other way around. So, I started checking for signs of wear in the chassis for what reason I don't know. Maybe I thought I would run across something obvious and wouldn't you know, I did. The VK212 has a pair of really old speakers in it that I can't even read the brand of. The lables are paper stickers and have faded something awful so I can't make out anything other than the ohms (16). I'm not even sure if these are guitar speakers. I have 2 16ohm Celestion G1275s that I pulled out of a Marshall cab years ago, stuck them in there and 2-1/2 hours later this strat player is liking this amp alot.

I think I will order some new speakers soon as I don't really care for the tinty sound of these but what a difference. WOW! Needless to say, I am very stoked about the possibilities of this amp after the speaker and tube changes. I have a Eminence Red Coat Guv'nor in my Egnater maybe I'll start there.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll post more as I upgrade this sweet amp.

_________________
Les Paul
Strat
Tele
Classic 50 Head & 212 Cab
Renegade 112
VK212


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 27217
Location: @ Mountain Retreat [Cincinnati Ohio]
Reseach WGS Speakers.......

Made In USA

Paducah Kentucky

Sold Factory Direct

Excellent Sound Clips on WGS website

212 can run two different models for full dynamic tone

Example: One Reaper HP & One Retro

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PAF Classic Series Tube Kit.......Created By Classic30inCincy
Majic Mojo Tradename..........Created By Classic30inCincy
Graduate Of Joe Friday / Dragnet School Of Correspondence
Doctorate Degree Diplomacy From Royal Order Possum Lodge


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 Post subject: Re: VK112 vs VK212
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 12
I have a VK112. I have changed out the pre amp & power tubes. The pre amp tubes were what CharlieP recommends, if I remember they were:
V1 Tung-sol 12ax7 R.I..
V2 Penta 12ax7
V3 Sovtec 12ax7 LPS
I did the power tubes first, cause when I got the amp they were about shot, and I put JJ's in. I'm happy with them, but next time will probably go with TAD 6L6WGC-STR. The pre amps made a bigger change and I'm glad I found this forum.

However, possibly the best change I made was removing the stock speaker and installing a WGS Retro 30. It is brighter, more midrangy, more articulate and louder than the stock speaker. I cannot tell you how much better it made the amp sound!

So, I've made this lowly Chinese made Valveking my gigging amp...and not had one complaint. As I recall I got it in a trade with a value of roughly $300, I've dropped about $125 in it. It sounds great, cuts through, and I'd say it's on par with a lot of amps costing 2 & 3 times as much.

Lots of luck


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