Mixing Notions

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Mark Oliver
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Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:36 am

Mixing Notions

Post by Mark Oliver » Tue May 16, 2017 8:14 pm

Mixing notions

I operate a small concert series; have done for several years.
My policy is no band engineers and yes I have turned performers down because they would not accommodate that requirement. I understand bands enjoying their engineer being able to walk in with a thumb drive and set up their monitor mix, except, it is never really that simple or straight forward.
And the guys who are traveling with their own X32, all I can say is the two that came in to link in to my pa system were unbelievably noisy. Hiss and hum that I would never have tolerated from my Presonus board; I don’t care what the Kool aid drinkers say.
In almost every case, if the band wants to play and get paid they will agree.
I am talking about national level recording/touring acts playing an intimate 120 seat venue but being well compensated and who have all expressed a high level of satisfaction with the performance of my Peavey EU 112 /218 FOH and EU112 monitors powered by my Peavey IPR 3000 amps.
My policy came about because of the mix being provided by band engineers.
In the past 5 years I have made3 exceptions to the rule, the third one recently, and the results support my position. My ticket buyers are quick to identify that they can’t make out the lyrics. For them they don’t care of it sounds like the record; they aren’t listening to the record; they are listening to it live. They can do without the string section in the background, the extra vocalists, the multi tracking and overdubbing; they just want to be able to hear the words.
My theory is that band engineers have a tendency to create a mix which has a notch for every instrument and vocals so that everything is presented at about the same volume. Active engineers sometimes mix solo runs up a bit. They also have an inclination to augment vocals with some or lots of effects.
That approach results in a mix in which vocals are not clearly defined and above the instruments and my audience lets me know.
My theory might be off base, but as far as my audience goes, it is spot on.
I would be interested in hearing from anyone else who has experienced something similar. If I am alone on an island I get it. I am probably alone sticking to providing Shure SM57, 58, Beta 58 and Audix drum mics too rather than boutique products like Beyer and Neuman.

Dookie
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Location: Maine USA

Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Dookie » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:20 am

Mark;

First as to the X32's being noisy I've heard a few local and own a M32r myself and have to say they have a very low noise floor . My m32 has a lower noise floor than my Yamaha O1v and O1v96. The m32 line has better faders,preamps,and construction but in live sound they should be close. Something's wrong somewhere. Did they go through your board or just out to racks n stacks? Sounds like a gain stage problem somewhere. Again my m32 is dead silent.

I never see the audience as "my" audience. I am their engineer. I am their for them but there may be times when what they want is not what I want. I also don't see my rig as my personal stereo to make sound the way I want it. There may be reasons for how a guests engineer does what they do. Maybe the backing vocalist is not the best singer and should be back in the mix. Or straight out this is how the band wants to sound. Guitars on 10 with vocals burried? Not my call if this is what the visiting BE does. Short of driving my rig into the ground I'll walk away and far enough away to not take the blame for a ...... Mess.... (A great mix excluded. ;-). ) Of course I'll have my tablet or phone with the boards app running just in case things get way out of hand.

I'll help as much as I can when a BE shows up. Sometimes I'll get a basic mix up and running at sound check and let them go from there. I've backed my pa down on a guest BE before but as yet haven't had to ask one to stand down.

Be open and give them a chance. Don't get the rep as "that guy" who won't work with the bands coming through. In general if the band travels with their own engineer it will be in their rider and really not up for debate anyway. I can't think of a national/recording act that will hand over their mix if they have a band BE traveling with them. Like the promoters they have to give out in sound what the band wants.

I'm sure you know your system well and can get the best out of it. Just don't become the all powerful Oz. Be open and helpful. Grit your teeth through some of the mixes... Who knows. You may pick up a trick or two from them...

Doug

Josjor
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Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Josjor » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:53 am

I'll let the band's engineer have a go. It's their band and most of them know the set and the band a lot better than I do. I also sit near the board if it looks like their engineer doesn't have a clue or if it's a band that I suspect is going to try and kill people with dB's.

Then again, looking back, I've been pretty fortunate. I've never really had a problem with anyone and the engineers that seem to know what they're doing actually DO know what they're doing. The ones that were less experienced usually appreciated me being nearby and asked questions or even let me take the desk and said "I'll cue you for solos and stuff if you want to mix."

Almost as bad and sometimes worse than a bad engineer is the interfering mom/girlfriend/boyfriend/agent of the band, hovering over your shoulder and passing along "tips" about the mix. Two memorable examples come to mind.

1. The agent who complained that he couldn't hear the vocals. I held up my dB meter during the guitar solo and it was peaking at 115dB. Then I showed him the guitar channel on the board....which was muted. Then I said "I've asked your guitar player to turn down his amp three times. You can give it a go if you like. I'm in the business of providing sound, not killing people's hearing so I will not turn up the vocal to overcome the guitar."

2. The mom that said she couldn't hear her daughter's backing fiddle player. Then I pointed to the stage and said "That's because he isn't on stage." He had broken a string before the set and was backstage changing it. She said "Oh." :D
www.yandasmusic.com
Don't believe me. I'm just guessing.
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Mark Oliver
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Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Mark Oliver » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:49 am

Thanks for the feedback on my rant.

In response, the X32 – M32 boards have a great reputation and are of a superb quality. In my cases, we removed my board and the band engineers just connected their X32 boards using my cabling to my amp racks and speakers. They call up the scene they have for the band and are ready to go. However, the hiss and hum that was introduced was significant and noticeable and not something I would have been happy with but they seemed undaunted.

With respect to my use of the term “my audience”, perhaps that is not the best choice of words. However, for my not-for–profit concert series I am the person that hires the bands, does the promo, sells the tickets, rents the venue, cleans the venue, sets up the venue, assigns seating, orchestrates the press contacts, prints tickets and posters, arranges the hospitality for the performers usually at my home, supplies the pa and lighting and for 50 of the past 53 shows has mixed sound. The audience is not large at 120 but more than 50 percent are season ticket holders and most of those are year after year patrons and or sponsors. I feel that I need to ensure they have a great experience; sonically and socially and physically and so think of them as “my audience”. They in turn, come to me with concerns and recommendations.

The performers that I work with tend to be not those “coming through” as the concert series is booked more than a year in advance. However, some artists might try and build a series of shows around mine.

I have tried on those guest engineer occasions to try and learn from them as it would be foolish not to and the one thing I have learned is that it is easy to confuse commotion with accomplishment.

Further to the guest engineers issue is the fact that I always have the discussion with band agents and management at the time that an offer is being submitted so there are no surprises. The 3 times I have acquiesced and accommodated special requests have provided undesirable results.
So while I will try not to be “that guy”, it seems I am heading down that path.

Dookie
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Location: Maine USA

Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Dookie » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:46 pm

After reading the above it seems your more in the "private party" area than a road mixer or festival mixer. In your case I can see the need for your requirements. Pretty much your nickel. Doesn't sound like you've had many guest mixers so not really a major concern. Try 9 bands in 6 hours.... :roll:

Doug

Mark Oliver
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Posts: 128
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Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Mark Oliver » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:31 pm

Well I have done those festival style events and place them in a different category from my series of shows. I get that there may be one or several band engineers who is(are) completely familiar and up to speed with the band songs. Also, the audience and investment situation is totally not an issue.

Cheers!

Mark Oliver
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Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mixing Notions a follow up

Post by Mark Oliver » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:30 pm

Last week I attended the presentation of the musical Beautiful; the story of the life of Carol King up until her release of Tapestry.

The group I was with and others around, all struggled at times to pick out the vocals, both spoken and sung. The theatre was in Toronto and the show had fairly recently come off Broadway. These were seasoned professionals with no shortage of technology or rehearsal time. This presentation was exactly as the organizers wanted it. Yet, it was lacking in the audio presentation component. Sad for a musical.

We were in orchestra seats about 12 rows from the stage so there was no logistical reason for this shortcoming.

I will say that when the performers were belting it out in a song, or being emphatic in the script it was audible. Things were also better when hand held mics were used instead of the lavalier mics. It just seemed that the majority of the vocal work was at the same volume as the background music and therefore hard to discern.

This takes me back to my original post where I wonder if the current trend is to place vocal work in the same volume plane as the background sound while allowing it to rise above in certain situations as opposed to having the vocal work above the background sound at all times and controlling it to prevent it from overwhelming the room.

Thought on my observations?

Josjor
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Re: Mixing Notions

Post by Josjor » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:34 am

Depends on the genre, I think, Mark. For a musical like you attended? Definitely vocals on top, all the time, all the way. You had a bad engineer. Vocals on top is true of most genres: folk, country, old rock, rap, etc. The exception seems (to me) to be heavy rock (death metal type stuff) where often the vocal is part of the roar of the band.
www.yandasmusic.com
Don't believe me. I'm just guessing.
Neutiquam Erro

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