Clever use of two Transformer 112s

[Rob22315]

I was asked by another forum user to post how I was able to master/slave two Transformer 112s into a nice stereo kit that could work off one footswitch and one guitar. The reason this works is because the preamp circuit in the Transformer 112s and the 212s is the same (you can confirm this with the manual if you wish). Since the 212 can generate a pseudo stereo effect on things like delay, chorus, reverb, the preamp in the Transformer 112 can also but a single T112 can't do anything with the stereo signal by itself because it only has one power stage and one speaker. Since the Transformer has both MIDI In (aka Footswitch) and MIDI Out, we can use the two MIDI implementation to have the 'master' Transformer control the settings on the 'slave' Transformer. We just have to use these two features together with a few extra wires to have a stereo setup driven by one guitar and controlled by one footswitch.

Doing this requires both the correct hardware setup and a synchronization of the various settings. I'll put the hardware setup in this post and follow up with how to synchronize the settings in subsequent posts. I added a few features along the way which I'll post last. Here's the basic hardware setup:

What you need - one stock footswitch with cable, one 10 foot 5 pin DIN cable (male plug on both ends), one 1/4 inch stereo signal splitter (male stereo on the stereo side, mono female jack on the mono side), one 6 inch 1/4 mono patch cable (male on both ends), and one 10 foot 1/4 mono cable (male on both ends). Also, plug your guitar into the appropriate high or low gain input on the master T112.

Before you start, decide which T112 you want master and which one you want slave. I'd make the master the one that had the most reliable preamp - good functioning encoders, no pops or crackles from a failing memory chip etc. If the preamp on the slave is going bad, it shouldn't affect the sound unless it's not processing MIDI command properly. Another consideration - making the one you have your favorite custom settings on the master would be a great idea. Also, make sure both amps have the same version chip in the preamp. There's a 2.0 chip that can be had from factory that's worth getting if Peavey still has them. The new chip has additional models and tweaks not available on the original T112.

The EFX Send jack on the T112 is actually a stereo jack. Get a short stereo signal splitter to separate the two signals into an A side and a B side and plug the splitter into the EFX Send jack on the master 112. These two signals should be fed into the EFX Return jacks on each unit. You only need a short mono patch cable to route one of the signals from the splitter back into the master T112. The other signal should be sent to the EFX Return jack on the slave unit but you'll need a longer cable whose length depends on how far apart you want to separate the slave amp from the master amp. You can start with a 10 foot cable to experiment with and go longer if you need more. This setup separates the stereo signal from the master amp into two separate signals and sends them, as separate L/R signals to the power stages of the two amplifiers. Which amp get the L signal and which gets the R signal should correspond to how you have the two amps located.

For the control side of this, plug the stock footswitch into the MIDI Footswitch jack of the master T112. Plug one end of the 5 pin MIDI cable into the MIDI Out jack on the master T112 and plug the other end into the MIDI Footswitch jack on the slave T112. Now, the footswitch settings should change the settings on both T112s. The MIDI cable also needs to be at least as long as you want to separate the two amps as well. The shorter of the MIDI cable or the long patch cable will limit how far apart you can separate the amps. Note that the footswitch commands aren't the only commands sent via the MIDI connection. Moving the encoders on the master amp will make the same changes on the slave amp. The MIDI commands only go one way in this setup so the slave T112 is only the slave.

In order for this to work properly as I've described, you need to make sure the preamp on the master T112 is set to output a stereo signal. The command for this can be found on page 24 of the original manual. The stereo setting is a global tweak using the Depth knob.

For the two amps to process the signal identically, you need the various modeling settings on the two amps to be the same. The MIDI cable won't synchronize the settings, it only sends the footswitch commands from one to the other. This means that if you have custom user settings programmed into one amp that aren't on the other, pressing the footswitch switches won't make them the same, it will only activate the same model (A1, B2, C4 etc.). An easy way to do this is to use the factory settings. I'll post more on how to synchronize the modeling settings on the slave with the master in another post.

You might ask about the needs to have the MIDI synchronization at all - why can't this work simply by sending the stereo signal from the master to any old power stage/speaker - here's why. The modeling effects in the Transformer affect both the digital/analog modeling in the preamp AND some of the elements of the power stage. Having a MIDI control ensuring the settings on both Transformers is the same keeps the tweaks on the two power stages the same. The original designer of the amp (MidiMan) posts on here sometimes and could shed some of the engineering details of this if anyone wanted to know more.

[JedTaylor777]

thanks i do intend to proceed with both of your suggestions but i was looking at this as a means to give other amps the same opportunity as well. i d seen folks with 2 3 even 5 bandit/express/studio pro that would have some version of this vslave /master with a line out and in and out efex,,,,, seems to hinge on mimdi for midi amps. what of those other same same groupings such as the vypyr and computer sync

[JedTaylor777]

thanks i do intend to proceed with both of your suggestions but i was looking at this as a means to give other amps the same opportunity as well. i d seen folks with 2 3 even 5 bandit/express/studio pro that would have some version of this vslave /master with a line out and in and out efex,,,,, seems to hinge on mimdi for midi amps. what of those other same same groupings such as the vypyr and computer sync

[Rob22315]

thanks i do intend to proceed with both of your suggestions but i was looking at this as a means to give other amps the same opportunity as well. i d seen folks with 2 3 even 5 bandit/express/studio pro that would have some version of this vslave /master with a line out and in and out efex,,,,, seems to hinge on mimdi for midi amps. what of those other same same groupings such as the vypyr and computer sync

You'll have to find amps that either accept both midi in and midi out, or find amps who's modeling doesn't affect the power stage so you don't need the midi synch. I don't know enough about the family of Peavey guitar amps to say which ones might work. AFAIK, the vypyr amps only have midi in. I suppose you could try using the vypyr as the slave but there's no guarantee the commands are compatible between the vypyr and the T112. Certainly, they won't sound the same either.

[Rob22315]

Here's part II of this DIY - now that you have the two T112s working in master/slave mode, you need to ensure the global and user settings are the same in both amps so they process the signal identically (other than generating the stereo signals of course). Synchronizing the settings is necessary because, when using the footswitch and the knobs, the midi connection only sends commands corresponding to knob settings, not the modeling settings. Fortunately, MidiMan and the other Peavey engineers provided midi commands to transfer the modeling settings - the commands are on page 27 of the manual.

To dump global settings: hold TAP and press STORE
To dump a single preset: hold TAP and press USER

Note that you need to dump each of the 16 USER presets individually. You only need to dump the global settings once. Since the factory settings are the same and not tweakable, those don't need to be dumped.

Alternatively, you can download the windows program that allow you to control the T112 from a computer and synchronize your settings manually. You will need a midi/usb interface cable to connect the computer to the MIDI Footswitch jack. If you have the 2.0 chip, you don't need the computer since all the tweaks are accessible via the front panel but the chip that came new with these units is missing some features. MidiMan put the computer software and some nice preset files on his Transformer page that you can download - http://tform.home.comcast.net/~tform/.

[Rob22315]

Here's the last piece of my setup - I added small stereo mixer between the EFX out and EFX return lines. Having the mixer gives me some added control over the guitar sound and lets me insert other signals after the preamp so they are unaffected by the guitar effects. I specifically use this for a microphone but it could also be used to add an mp3 player, a computer, additional instruments, additional effects etc. The mixer I got includes it's own effects so I was able to add some reverb to the microphone without affecting the guitar signal. Behringer units are cheap, effective, and they are always adding nice features to them.

If you dig into the Transformer tweaks, there are a few interesting settings that might not be obvious - things like the noise gate threshold, the stereo separation on the delay etc. Dig into the manual a bit, especially the tweak table to see what this thing can really do. The Tweak Table has a lot of options in it - play around with the settings liberally. You can always do a factory reset if things get out of control.

I think custom tweaks are especially important when it comes to the cab emulations. Some folks complain about a 'blanket effect' - the loss of treble like there's a blanket over the cabinet. I think some of this is due to the way some of the cab/speaker emulations are programmed. Find the cab/speaker settings you like then apply them to the other simulations and I think you'll like this unit even better. Also make use of the new bass and treble tweaks in the 2.0 chip - Bright, Presence, and Resonance especially. Note that the names of the cab/speaker emulations aren't listed on the faceplate so you'll have to use the manual to decode the lights.

[JedTaylor777]

You gave me the most perfect information to date....midi amps with midi amps, I invested sums in two different types of midi amps one second transformer and one Roland vga 5 midi controlled 65 watt origin generation modeling amp. Both are midi control but only one has the second pedal controller. The second transformer did not have a pedal controller. Bites but its what I get for jumping ahead. The Roland midi vga 5 is the asimilar line in efex in and out and midi in and out....foot controller midi it s pedal system is more advanced than the transformer because its dynamic control logic.... is different. COSM and the peavey logic system may or may not be. I m looking at advanced roland contancts to realize whether or not it will work both amps by using one or two pedal controllers and the line in between the two as you determined in your previous remarks. I m truly in awe of the tone dynamics of the peavey transformer. It is wonderfully rich and lush it makes my tube amp sound slightly soft. The effects pedal control of the onboard effects sound so full its seems a waste of amplifier generations to think that the vypyr is suppose to sound better. I have a 40 or 60 watt vypyr and its got plenty of altered realities, but I still feel the transformer has a much fuller frequency range. It fills the room with the echo empedance of the tones and frequencies levels that my vypyr doesnt seem to reach in contrast. It could be I am expecting a different apples and oranges kind of value system. But none the less the transformer is singularly a wonderful room filling tone elephant. I shall endeavor to update you on the midi operational systems between the roland and the peavey. It should be great to get the full essence of the transformer accross the midi and into the roland and vice versa. Will see. Thanks again for the expansion of my knowledge and my depleted wallet says..............sheep dip.......music has to be more important than ..........it is important to me. But, the betterment of my mind is the one thing I do not put a price tag on. I hope that the summer has given you all a better tone, a better command of the guitar and more more comforted reality to focus on. Jed T pronounced jedi

[JedTaylor777]

I realized tht the small board you use with the in and in on both amps can get a better level control and will allow for the volume changes to be with one simple activity. The thought also occurs that I could use the mixer to run both amps in the simplest form of control with the guitar in and the mixer into the amps levels in. Is this the right form of simple control if the midi fails. I have a very plain 8 track 4 plus 4 system. Just an easy question that will tell me that I have more options than brains. thanks jed t.......the swirling force of nature. Its not arrogance its humor

[MidiMan]

Great info here on using two of these amps in stereo. A couple things to add...

1. There is a way to dump all presets from one amp to the other. On the master amp, hold TAP and press MODULATION. That will send all 16 user presets to the slave amp (via the 5-pin MIDI cable).
http://tform.home.comcast.net/~tform/TformMIDI.html

2. On the master amp, the tip of the send jack is connected to the power amp return UNLESS you plug something into the power amp in. So you don't really need to connect the tip of the send to the return - you don't need anything plugged into the master amp's return jack (since it's redundant). You can take a stereo splitter as mentioned and just run a mono guitar cable from the ring side to the return of the slave amp. The other option is to ONLY use the guitar cable and plug it just part way into the master's send jack (so the cable tip touches the jack''s ring), and run that to the slave's return jack. That option is a little trickier, but good to know if you don't have a splitter, or if your splitter gets lost.

[Rob22315]

Awesome tips MidiMan, thanks for chiming in!

Tip 1 worked great - took about 2-3 seconds for the transfer to complete. I didn't see this in the manual or the 2.0 chip paperwork so I pen/inked it into the manual.

I couldn't use Tip 2 - I need to keep my mixer in-the-loop on both channels so the microphone (or anything else I insert) comes across both channels. If I were just using a guitar, this feature would be very useful.

[MidiMan]

I think the dump method is in the manual under Preset Backup, page 26/27. I'm not sure if there were multiple versions of the manual.

And yeah, with the mixer in the loop, you need to use both return jacks. But not with the original idea without the mixer. I've been meaning to try some stuff in the loop - like an eq and/or compressor. I have inserted a Strymon Timeline delay. That's a fun one.

Thanks

[Rob22315]

You were right, top of page 27.

[Lacking Talent]

Great thread!

[ritchie]

A very belated update to an old but very ingenious original post. ( thanks a zillion Rob )

Some years ago, I read about the great Jimmy Webster and his 'wonderful stereo' Gretsch White Falcon.
Unfortunately it was not stereo at all, just two disrete mono amps fed with bridge and neck pickups respectively..

It prompted a few ideas over the years, but 'fake stereo' with a stereo jack, and the neck pickup going to one amp, and the bridge pickup to another (which was the totality of Jimmy Webster's system) was fairly uninspiring for me.
Chet Atkins using split pickups , made for him by Ray Butts (again to two discrete mono amps) was a little better, but I still felt that there should be more.

So, ater searching for a second Peavey 112 Transformer for ages, I just found one. (from Poland )

Unike Rob, ( the original inspiration for my rig ) I want to use the two as a dual stereo system.

ie; a) unused fx send from amp 1, feeding fx return in amp 2) and;
b) unused fx send from amp 2 feeding fx return in amp 1

I have a TC Ditto x 4 looper, so I'll send guitar via a compressor out, and a split lead, into the two front panels jack in's, and put the stereo looper in's and out's between the two fx sends and returns.
The looper is always playing into two clean channels (via fx returns) despite whatever fx or distortion are going into the two looper inputs..

I'll use both PV Transformer footpedals as well, because I want to be able to get (for example) a Billy Gibbons fairly clean sound on one side, and distorted dirt with slapback cho, on the other, if I want, and still have any guitar fx panning across two stereo images, to taste..

So chorus and vibrato at the same time, panning across the stereo image at different speeds (for example) are do-able, because I'm using two discrete stereo amps playing through two speakers.
I'll copy user patches across to the second Transformer with a midi lead, making sure the respective volumes are reasonably OK, and I'm good to go.

I have a 212 Transformer at the moment which I like a lot, but I hope the double 112 'dual stereo' system makes it redundant.

The new rig will be far more versatile and I think very powerful and it should open up lots of new possibilities.
I also have Roland GK3's and Axon and Roland guitar synths which could be incorporated via a small line level mixer across the fx returns as Rob suggests.
And if one amp fails during a gig, then I've always got a spare.

richard
bg

[Rob22315]

Richard bg,

you just went to 11!!!! What a great idea to take advantage of both preamps and cross connect them into the power stage of the other.

Note that I can't take anywhere near full credit for this idea. The original concept was part of the design of the 112 as conceived by user midiman aka John Fera, the original designer of the Transformer. He posted earlier in this thread if you want to thank him directly for his clever design.