Feedback ferrets

This forum is for discussions on the various types of Peavey processors and effects.
User avatar
jethro rocker
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Feedback ferrets

Post by jethro rocker » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:42 pm

Hi all. I usually hang out in the amps section and recently started browsing here. A question - it seems over the years here and there that there are fairly heavy negative opinions as to Feedback Ferrets and suppressors in general. Question is, why? Ours works great! IF you have set up mics properly in terms of gain, etc and IF you have placed your wedges in the least sensitive feedback area, turn up the monitor sends until feedback starts and is killed using a VERY narrow notch frequency, then one can use graphic to further ring out any other issues that may pop up, why is this a bad thing? The Q is narrower on the ferret leaving sound virtually untouched, certainly saves some time ringing out all those frequencies as the guitar player here is also sound set up guy. I'm NOT talking about permanent installations where everything in the room is constant. Many bands have no permanent sound dude and to me, they seem like a super idea and it DOES work well. It is NOT a replacement for proper installation OR an EQ entirely, just a tool to reduce feedback, setup time and maintain monitor sound. Just curious....
Cheers!

ctclark1
Member
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:13 pm

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by ctclark1 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:30 pm

Some of it probably comes from the feeling by some of our more "old school" colleagues who believe that a human can do it better because they have direct control over it and there's no use for it because the perfect setup will have no need for any feedback control. (Sorry, I'm generalizing there)

Some of it also comes from people who feel that anyone who would "want" to use this can't be a professional because they're relying on it to control feedback instead of proper mic/monitor placement.

Still more of it probably comes from people who have tried one company's version which didn't work well and therefore because one is bad they must all be bad.

And finally, because (sorry for lumping these two together but they're the only ones who come to mind as manufacturers of these) Peavey and Behringer are the makers of products like this, in the eyes of some people neither company can be considered professional thereby a product that these companies make (which are popular among the MI/JV market) is unprofessional and a bad product.

And yet through any combination of these, the audible excuse you'll always get is "Proper mic placement and a well set parametric EQ are all you'll ever need" without any admission of bias towards the company/intended audience.

Generally.
Chris - Lead Technician/Audio Specialist
Technical Services Coordinator @ Darien Lake Theme Park Resort

User avatar
SemperFiSound
Member
Posts: 9820
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: NW Florida - Pensacola area

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by SemperFiSound » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:27 pm

OR...in my case: I ran out of rack space....

If the band is running their own sound, these are invaluable when setup correctly as you wrote.
If there is a dedicated sound guy, these may be used, but they are not truly "invaluable."

Cheers,
Steve
SemperFi Sound; the website
SemperFi Sound On FaceBook
"The Art of War teaches us to rely, not upon the calculated likelihood of
the enemy's coming or not, but on our own readiness to receive him... no
matter what he does." Sun Tzu

UncleTony
Member
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:05 am

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by UncleTony » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:39 pm

I have to agree with Steve. We're a band and do our own sound. We've set up so many times in so many different venues that everybody in the band knows how to set up the monitor gear in order to get optimum monitor volume out of each mix. We use 3 mixes. Vox and keyboard in all 3. My guitar in one mix. The lead player's guitar in his mix. But for quick and easy setup; feedback suppression technology is nice to have.
UncleTony

2 SP2, 2 SP218.
4 Peavey QW2, 4 Peavey QW218.
Rack 1: 2 xti 2000, 2 xti 4000, 1 IPR 1600 - VSX26
Rack 2: 2 xti 2000, 2 xti 4000, 1 IPR 1600
four PV15M.
1 PVM46, 1 PVM22, 1 PVM 45iR

http://www.thenephewslive.com, Galena, Ohio

Stryker57
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:39 am
Location: Cincinnati,Ohio

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by Stryker57 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:32 pm

to me the biggest drawback to a ferret is most times it allows users (me included) to run on the edge of feedback and push a smaller system further then you probally should, rather then as a safety back up.

normally the freq notched out are important sound quality freqs and are feedbacking for a reason, and rather then learn and use proper techniques/set up...... its plug in and rock for many.

quality sound is an art and a talent.
a machine can only notch freqs till it runs out of notch points

UncleTony
Member
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:05 am

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by UncleTony » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:22 pm

I have blown CD's with a feedback suppressor.
UncleTony

2 SP2, 2 SP218.
4 Peavey QW2, 4 Peavey QW218.
Rack 1: 2 xti 2000, 2 xti 4000, 1 IPR 1600 - VSX26
Rack 2: 2 xti 2000, 2 xti 4000, 1 IPR 1600
four PV15M.
1 PVM46, 1 PVM22, 1 PVM 45iR

http://www.thenephewslive.com, Galena, Ohio

User avatar
jethro rocker
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by jethro rocker » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:08 pm

Agreed that all makes sense! It is not an INvaluable tool but can be a valuable one. Most small watering holes we play would be on the verge quite quickly and I think our singer is half deaf, she'd want more and more and if you ran every frequency from 500 to 4k down 12dB you'd still have to run hot! Exaggerating a bit but you get it... She has poor mic control and angle issues, hey, YOU try and tell her that!! :lol: we're on in-ears now. 5 mixes and 5 vocal mics in a small place doesn't help! Our drummer is a loud sicko too! Set up is essential - I've had many a "pro" sound man tell me to set the monitor directly behind the mic. Hmmm..interesting as you get less feedback at about 20 - 30 degrees or so off rear axis, at least with most of our mics I've used plus it angles the monitor towards human ears. I mean, try it, put the mic on rear axis till it's on the verge and angle the mic. You can find the sweet spot.
The ferret did do what it is supposed to for us and combined with some brains and EQ I could clear the wax outta my ears with wedges. Some gigs we've played with large pro setups could give meager monitors at best, baffling to me in this day and age! Rock on all of you!

User avatar
SemperFiSound
Member
Posts: 9820
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: NW Florida - Pensacola area

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by SemperFiSound » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 pm

Come to Philly. I'll show you what eight bi-amp'd QW monitors - just over 12,000 Watts available - will do to an onstage diva who can never hear herself and they will also blow the drummer through the back wall as his ears are bleeding. :twisted:

I LOVE it when a heavy metal band asks me to turn down the monitors. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Steve

PS: What mics are you using where putting the monitors behind actually works?
SemperFi Sound; the website
SemperFi Sound On FaceBook
"The Art of War teaches us to rely, not upon the calculated likelihood of
the enemy's coming or not, but on our own readiness to receive him... no
matter what he does." Sun Tzu

User avatar
jethro rocker
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by jethro rocker » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:35 pm

Sorry I should have said all the mics of ours I've tried! Never tried one that worked on axis! Yes, a great budget for ass kicking monitors like that would be awesome!! We need more clubs here with that type of set up. I like being able to hear my vocals well and still rock out with guitar. With the in ears, I wear only one side next to drums and leave one open for live sound, communication, and to hear my amp's glorious kick! Cheers and thanks!

simplicity
Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:01 am
Location: Livingston, TN
Contact:

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by simplicity » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:56 pm

ctclark1 wrote: And finally, because (sorry for lumping these two together but they're the only ones who come to mind as manufacturers of these) Peavey and Behringer are the makers of products like this, in the eyes of some people neither company can be considered professional thereby a product that these companies make (which are popular among the MI/JV market) is unprofessional and a bad product.

Generally.
I agree that people "believe" that BUT, but what's funny is DBX also makes such items. As a matter of fact, when you look at the Driverack 260 features list, it's the first thing listed not to mention they also make a stand alone processor similar to the ferret http://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/afs224

I think it has a LOT to do with not understanding the product, that's the category I fall into. I've never had the ferret in anything other than on my FX16 and I still haven't used it. It's the one thing I haven't taken the time to learn, yet.

There is also something to be said regarding, trial and failure as you mentioned. If one fails, they all will fail etc... I'll sometimes fall into that category too. For example, years ago my first venture into DMX lighting found me with a pair of American DJ DJ Scans and o Lord did they SUCK! Sadly, I lumped all AMDJ intels into that category and moved to Martin. Maybe I am right and maybe I'm wrong but I did fall victim to that mentality..

I think a lot has to do with insecurity... Let's face it, who wants to praise a product that can help people acheive what we do, without us? Tour engineers don't need it because they have the budget to get the right gear for the job AND people to work it as their sole job, ie: FOH and Monitor engineers and techs. Therefore they don't like it because they probably truly can do it better than a device.

Then you have the new band with NO $$$ for a sound guy and gear so they have to do it themselves. After they get going thay may have some $$ to invest in gear or a FOH guy and will often opt for the gear to "help" them get better sound...

Then stuck in the middle is US, the smaller weekend warrior people or even smaller regional guys.. The new'ish band calls to ask about sound because they can't get their monitors right and wants to know how much it'll be for "us" to provide sound OR what can they do to eliminate feedback.. We go on to tell them in detail good gain structure, mics choice and technique, monitor placement and eq and they decide, WOW I'm a (insert your favorite instrument here) player NOT a sound guy and that's wayyyyy too much to learn.

So next comes the question, how can we eliminate feedback while not hiring you and not learning sound principles of sound, yep pun intended... We've, us sound people, spent years and HUGE $$$$$ on learning how TO properly run sound and our craft is a skill and an art which rarely gets appreciated, do we really want to tell them about a magic box that can eliminate us and our skill from the possible solution? My guess is that most of us won't, it's survival... I've done NO research, just a hunch.

Now here's my disclaimer. I've never had anyone ask me about the ferret except for the person who "designed" the sound system at the last church I was at.. Some of my above was related to that experience. Before I was there, they'd rather set it and leave it and have NOBODY in the soundbooth during service than to use a capable sound person or even train someone to sit and lower a fader if it fedback.. Therefore, due to a horrible placement of speakers in a terribly "live" room, there was GBF and feedback issues, hence him asking if I could get the ferret in the 32FX working for them to correct the issue. From then until I left, I "mixed" the service rather than cover the issue with a bandage...

OK, not sure where that all came from but, that's my thoughts on it LOL!

Now, because of this thread I'm gonna have to try to learn the ferret, dang you all! LOL!
Allen D.

Josjor
Member
Posts: 4229
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:04 am

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by Josjor » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:16 pm

I'll go ahead and weigh in here.

Ferret's are like any tool in the tool chest: there's a right time and a right way to use them. I always tell customers that they work wonders, not miracles. If you're going to stand in front of a 1000 watt full-range speaker with a lapel mic and the gain cranked, it might work, but you'll sound like crap. If you'll follow the basic rules of feedback prevention, they'll help you get a little more gain out of the mics and help avoid the eye-bleeding screamer of a feedback frequency.

I used to have them in my monitor rack, along with 31 band eq's for each mix. Took them out as I wasn't using them much. Why? Because I followed the basic rules of feedback prevention and I'm a trained and practiced sound tech.

But when I'm selling a sound system to a church or school that will be using things like choir mics and lapel mics and they don't have a trained and practiced sound tech? A feedback ferret is a requisite part of the bid. They really help the untrained.

If you go try to get nuts with them and have them do all the work, yes, they will color the sound. But following a few basic, common sense rules, they will help the novice or layperson stay out of trouble.
www.yandasmusic.com
Don't believe me. I'm just guessing.
Neutiquam Erro

simplicity
Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:01 am
Location: Livingston, TN
Contact:

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by simplicity » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:23 pm

SemperFiSound wrote:Come to Philly. I'll show you what eight bi-amp'd QW monitors - just over 12,000 Watts available - will do to an onstage diva who can never hear herself and they will also blow the drummer through the back wall as his ears are bleeding. :twisted:

I LOVE it when a heavy metal band asks me to turn down the monitors. :mrgreen:
Steve, I'm hoping maybe this summer I can head up, I'd love to see the rig in action.

PS. I see you said you're heading to Bike Week, cool. If I don't go to a church sound training session in Dallas in Feb, I may make the trip to Daytona. Maybe we can meet up.
Allen D.

User avatar
jethro rocker
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by jethro rocker » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:01 pm

Our problem, as I've sorta alluded to, is that we are a reasonably loud rock band playing in often smaller venues with 5 vocal mics and limited resources in terms of speakers etc. and very limited setup time. I'm reasonably aware of decent mic technique and procedures but I admit I'm not trained in this obviously. I do follow the basic rules to prevent feedback, we ring out monitors with EQ as necessary but do the Ferrets not have a much narrower Q therefore affecting the sound less? I've wondered that. If anyone has any ideas, just for curiosity? It is nice as an initial ring out, we certainly don't setup willy nilly and expect magic from it. I'm very careful to try and reduce feedback with mic placement etc. Now were are on in ears and it does help with getting your vocals more accurate. I don't mind 'em! Also, a thanks to all the great sound dudes who get us fantastic monitor mix and FOH sound over the years! Hats off to you!

User avatar
SemperFiSound
Member
Posts: 9820
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: NW Florida - Pensacola area

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by SemperFiSound » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:29 am

simplicity wrote:I may make the trip to Daytona. Maybe we can meet up.
Sure. I'm riding down the 95 (no trailering!) starting on the 13th. Meeting one friend in Baltimore that morning and continuing, RON somewhere in NC area, roll into Daytona late afternoon on the 14th, staying through Sunday, reverse course Monday morning.
jethro rocker wrote:is that we are a reasonably loud rock band playing in often smaller venues with 5 vocal mics and limited resources in terms of speakers etc.
Okay, what this tells me is that your audience volume comes "significantly" from the instrument amplifiers.

Here's what "usually" happens in those situations:
As the second set starts and the "performer deafness" starts to kick in, one guy turns up his amp a click, then someone else realizes they cannot hear themselves, so they turn up a click, or two. Then the lead vocalist cannot hear herself so she wants more monitor (in ears are GREAT things!) then the drummer states he can't hear his snare drum.....and the death spiral continues.

What should happen with bands that go deaf during the gig:
They should all have IEMs and they should all have their own mix. There is just no other professional alternative in a small to medium sized venue.
Bottom line: when stage volume gets increased, bad things happen.

I've typed this before, but it would seem applicable here:
What do bar owners/managers want from a night where they have live entertainment? The same thing they want from a night with no entertainment...robust liquor sales, good tips for the wait staff, happy patrons.
How does this happen? Patrons go to the bar KNOWING they are going to have a good time. You never hear someone state, "let's go to Maggies - that place sucks."

Small to medium bars/venues have local reputations. Bar/venue owners MUST keep up that reputation - doesn't matter what band has played there. There are plenty of these venues that the Beatles played that are out of business.

What does the small/medium bar/venue WANT the patrons to think the morning after the night before?
"Damn I had a GREAT time at Maggies last night! Wait staff was great, cold cheap beer, didn't have to yell to order drinks, hooked up with this great guy, dance floor was pumping, and what was the name of that band?"

Bars want to be known for a good time without blowing the budget and that should include 'decent' entertainment, be it karaoke, DJ Bob, or live entertainment featuring the "Combat Bagpipes & Accordion Thrash Band"...

Whatever - you get the idea. If the band is too loud and the wait staff cannot adequately function, the night is doomed. Even if your band's following packs the place, the regulars will tell the owner that you are too loud and you won't get invited back.

Loudness of a band should be a variable of the PA system, and only the PA system. If the owner says "it's too loud" whoever is doing sound should be able to adjust ONE slider pair or knob and fix the issue. Not have three guys go back to their amps and "pretend" to turn it down two clicks. You will have one chance to do this effectively, otherwise you will not get invited back.

Okay, I'm thinking and typing. Sorry. First cup of coffee still making its way through the system.
Cheers,
Steve
SemperFi Sound; the website
SemperFi Sound On FaceBook
"The Art of War teaches us to rely, not upon the calculated likelihood of
the enemy's coming or not, but on our own readiness to receive him... no
matter what he does." Sun Tzu

Stryker57
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:39 am
Location: Cincinnati,Ohio

Re: Feedback ferrets

Post by Stryker57 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:22 am

jethro rocker wrote: I do follow the basic rules to prevent feedback, we ring out monitors with EQ as necessary but do the Ferrets not have a much narrower Q therefore affecting the sound less? I've wondered that. If anyone has any ideas, just for curiosity? !
in my oppinion yes they may have narrower freq bands, but 9 times outta 10 (with proper mic placement) after the initial ring out most feedbacking freq end up being the important freq you want to hear. so it ends up taking the color you want and you basicly defeat the added dB from turning it up when the Ferret notchs it back out.

now I do leave the Ferret on in our FX mixer, being as i run sound from stage while playing. I use the auto setting that turns down the freq for like 10 secs to give me time to make an adjustment.
The biggest jump i found to combat feedback is properly powered quality monitors.
and sadly that came from 20+ years of making due with what we had.

1)I can tell you 2-3 entry level monitors are easily beat by 1 quality monitor.
2) the more headroom you have (if the speaker quality can handle it) the better

once you get proper gain and mic placement set and ring the venue out, you probally are near the full potential of you monitors/FOH if it aint loud enough, it wont get louder unless you have someone qualified to babysit it and make the on the fly adjustments it will require.

Post Reply